Michigan Votes

2005 Senate Bill 55 (Move teachers to state health insurance )

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  • Introduced by Sen. Shirley Johnson on January 25, 2005, to establish a state health insurance plan for school and community college employees. Schools would be required to replace their current employee health insurance with the state plan when their current employee contracts expire. Details of the insurance coverage would be established by a state "school employee health care board" consisting of two members nominated by the governor, two by the Senate Majority Leader, and two by the House Speaker. Reportedly the state spends substantially less per employee for health coverage compared to many school districts. Slightly more than half of Michigan teachers are currently covered by MESSA, an arm of the Michigan Education Association teachers union, which repackages Blue Cross/Blue Shield insurance, collects premiums, and administers benefits. Most other teachers are covered by Blue Cross/Blue Shield without MESSA involvement.
    • Referred to the Senate Appropriations Committee on January 25, 2005.

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Comments

Introduced by Sen. Shirley Johnson on January 25, 2005. New Comment

1) vacation,Hi! I'm John Strass and i like your site! Thank you! [by Anonymous Citizen on January 31, 2008]
Hi! I'm John Strass and i like your site!
Thank you!
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2) vacation,Hi! I'm John Strass and i like your site! Thank you! [by Anonymous Citizen on January 31, 2008]
Hi! I'm John Strass and i like your site!
Thank you!
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3) MikeDoe,Hello! I'm MikeDoe! Check out my site! [by Anonymous Citizen on December 19, 2007]
Hello! I'm MikeDoe! Check out my site!
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4) !!!!! [by Anonymous Citizen on December 11, 2006]
Maybe we need to get the students out that are not doing their job either. The ones that take up space and are non-productive. They just tend to increase class size and dumby down the class. Students that aren't at school to be successful should be removed, period. Maybe that would fix some of our schools problems. Maybe parents need to be a little more accountable for their students. Oh and lets take away the one good thing that teachers have, their benefits. How about doing the same thing to congress. They make to much money and have great benefits. I would like to see them take a cut all around.
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5) congratulations... [by Anonymous Citizen on November 11, 2006]
governor granholm can now move forward with her plans to move all teachers to a state approved health plan.

aren't you glad your union dues went to supporting her campaign?
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6) Bad Legislation -- Period. [by Anonymous Citizen on November 2, 2006]
This proposal seems to be motivated more than anything else by a desire to break the union’s (MEA) back by putting MESSA out of business. That is not a legitimate thing for our government be doing. Both the MEA and MESSA are legally constituted entities.

Also, by moving all teachers in the state to a state-government sponsored health care system, competition in that marketplace would be eliminated. Monopolies – and government run monopolies – are typically caharacterized as being expensive and inefficient. This move more likely would drive up the cost of health care rather than push it down.

Bad legislation, no matter how you look at it.

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7) now you're getting it... [by Anonymous Citizen on November 2, 2006]
consider the proper role of government when thinking about whether or not the government needs to be involved in YOUR insurance choices.
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8) RE: Blame Game [by Anonymous Citizen on October 19, 2006]
No blame no game only cost saving
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9) Cost Saving? [by Anonymous Citizen on November 1, 2006]
No one has yet answered the basic question -- how will removing the teachers' ability to bargain for their health care reduce costs? This bill is aimed at eliminating MESSA. However, only about half of Michigan's school districts participate in MESSA. So, because someone doesn't like that about half of school districts choose to use MESSA, the solution is to remove everyone's choice? If MESSA is adding costs, rather than eliminating choice, how about giving an incentive to those districts who choose not to use it? How about going after drug companies and the medical establishment who jack up costs to unreasonable levels?
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10) Teachers deserve MESSA. Their out of cost expenses are UNREAL. [by Anonymous Citizen on November 1, 2006]
Don't get me started.
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11) To: Don't get me started. [by Anonymous Citizen on November 14, 2006]
Please reply, we want to hear your opinion. For that reason, we the tax payer would like to understand, before any of us can help, agree or disagree. I also would suggest read entire thread.
There are very good ideas, and 98% good cooments on here. And then reply.
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12) this bill raises [by Anonymous Citizen on November 14, 2006]
emotional issues and tough questions.

1. are teachers to be trusted with picking their own healthcare?

2. can we 'interfere' with the private lives of teachers simply because they are 'public servants'?

3. is it the business of government to be meddling in the personal business affairs of those who they pay?

it is amazing how much teachers get blamed for being "liberal", and then how loudly they complain when a "liberal" policy strikes so close to home.
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13) it will reduce costs to the state [by Anonymous Citizen on November 1, 2006]
because they won't have to have you "collectively bargaining" to get better insurance than they can give you.

you won't be able to strike, because there will be nothing to strike over. so that won't cost them anything to REPLACE YOU while you strike.

with only one plan to administer, (theirs), they won't have to worry about "duplication of effort". everyone will be on the 'same page', everyone will be equal, it will be "fair".

isn't that what's MOST IMPORTANT??????
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14) Reply [by Anonymous Citizen on November 2, 2006]
It will not reduce costs.
1. There will always be something to bargain over. Be aware that if they strip us of health care, we will bargain to regain the salary increases that we gave up to get health care. We will also bargain for better working conditions (smaller class sizes, more materials) since the district can no longer claim they have to outlay so much for health care.

2. There are always issues that teachers could go out on strike over. However, since we have been stripped of that right, we generally don't. It usually takes a lot for teachers to go out on strike. Remember, Detroit teachers worked without a contract for years before they finally decided to strike. So I don't know where you get the idea that forcing teachers into substandard health care will somehow keep them from striking.

3. According to you, stripping teachers of quality health care is somehow a good idea because it throws everyone into one, easily administered system. Can anyone say Medicare? Does anyone think that is an efficiently run, cost effective system? Does anyone really believe that this is a quality health care system that focuses on prevention? Districts will probably end up paying more in substitute costs due to more teachers being out sick because we will be unable to get preventative care.
This is just another attack on teachers and yet another attempt to blame teachers for all that is wrong with the world. If you are really concerned about health care costs, do something about the source of those costs, namely the drug companies and the medical establishment.
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15) focus [by Anonymous Citizen on November 3, 2006]
Why doesn't the MEA focus on going after the drug companies and insurance companies instead of bullying citizens into paying for teacher benefits that are superior to the health care afforded the average taxpayer? Use your great and powerful voting force to do some good for once. What are your democrat leaders going to do about the big drug companies and insurance companies? Why hasn't anything been done yet?
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16) Re: Focus [by Anonymous Citizen on November 3, 2006]
Why doesn't the general public step up and put pressure on the drug companies instead of blaming teachers for the rising costs of health care? Why doesn't the public put pressure on their Democratic and Republican leaders to do something about it? Where is the public outcry and the condemnation of the drug companies in the media and on sites like this? Oh, but I forgot, it's so much easier to blame the teachers and strip us of our collective bargaining abilities. Who are you going to go after next after you've relegated teachers to second class citizen status? You really ought to warn them so they're ready for the enormous disrespect and punitive measures, rather than getting blindsided like the teachers.
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17) to-refocus [by Anonymous Citizen on November 14, 2006]
With all do respect for Teachers. Your comment: The public fight the drug companies etc.
You are also the Public, you also can ban with us the Public, that pays for your wages etc.
Help us Help you.
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18) no, it wasn't an attack on [by Anonymous Citizen on November 2, 2006]
teachers.

it was a WAKE UP CALL.

to get all the "i love my union" and "i vote democrat no matter what" types' attention.

now that i have it, work now to change what needs changing, especially those who wrote this controlling legislation.

it's not the proper job of government to decide for you what kind of health care you need.


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19) this bill is ABOUT [by Anonymous Citizen on November 1, 2006]
control, like so many others.


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20) best solution to reduce operating cost. [by Anonymous Citizen on October 19, 2006]
if the State health coverage is one of the best, then, it should be included in the funding formula as the best option and if not elected the the unit funding value will be less.
The State fund So the State can have that option.
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21) Blame game [by Anonymous Citizen on October 17, 2006]
People blame teachers because they are simply stupid. Just plain old fashioned lack of integrity stupid. They blame teachers because they don't want to step up to the plate and shoulder the responsiblity of raising their children! Just plain retards! Dumb asses! Stupid ingnoramous people. And there are tens of thousands of them who are spineless dumb stupid idiots! But shame on the teachers for not having enough back bone to push back! and tell those idiots if they don't like it here move to Russia! Its time teachers say to those constant critics "if you don't like then get the hell out! piss on you people! were sick of it!
When are you teacher going to push back?
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22) Re:Blame Game [by Anonymous Citizen on October 17, 2006]
I'm not saying that teachers don't bear any responsibility for the current educational problems. We do bear some. What I am saying is that there are other members of the team that should shoulder some responsibility. I am also saying that it is time for everyone concerned about education to act like team members instead of adversaries. Here is what I see that all members of the team could do better:

Teachers
1. There are some teachers (as in any profession) who really don't belong in the profession. It should not take years to fire a teacher who has been proven (with documented evidence) to be incompetent. There is a general sense in the public that we, as a profession, protect the incompetents among us. This is a valid criticism and we need to stand up and be more proactive in this area. Incompetents in the field hurt us and hurt the children we serve.

2. We need to be more vocal about what we know works. We know what strategies and methods work for our children. When the powers that be try to force something down our throats that is unproven and just the latest thing coming down the pike, we need to demand the evidence that shows this new strategy/method/curriculum works. If they can't show us the proof, we need to stand up as one and say, "No! We're sticking with what we know works!"

3. We need to be more vocal for better learning conditions for our students. It is inexcusable for any child to go to school in a building that is crumbling. It is inexcusable not to have enough textbooks or materials to go around. It is inexcusable for any child to have to walk through what amounts to a war zone in order to get to school.

Politicians
1. Stop passing unfunded mandates. I can't conjure the money for all these new programs and services out of thin air nor do I have a money printing machine in the boiler room.

2. Get some expert advice before writing education law. If you're writing a law for elementary schools, actually get some input from the elementary school teachers. Same thing for the secondary teachers. We have a wealth of knowledge and we like to share.

Students
1. Do the assigned work to the best of your ability. If you need help on an assignment, don't blow it off, ask for help. That's what your teachers are there for. We'd rather you ask 100 questions than sit there and do nothing.The knowledge fairy isn't going to open up your head and dump the information in.

2. Pay attention and participate. You are not a rock, don't act like one in class.

3. Read! No one gets better at something without practice.

Parents
1. Recognize that learning starts at birth, not at kindergarten. Read to your children, teach them nursery rhymes, talk to them so they can develop language skills. Give them experiences (library, museum, etc.) that will help them develop.

2. Turn off the tv, Game Boy, etc. Help them develop their imaginations.

3. Make sure they get enough rest and a decent breakfast in the morning.

4. Teach them about respect, responsibility, manners, etc.

If we all cooperate and stop blaming each other, imagine the possibilities.
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23) Right On! [by Anonymous Citizen on October 17, 2006]
This is a great post that pretty well tells it like it is.

Every point is aimed at improving public schools and public education.

Note that not one of these positive suggestions would cost taxpayers additional money or has anything to do with moving teachers to a state run health care inusrance system.
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24) You Sound Like [by Anonymous Citizen on October 17, 2006]
you've made the most of your public education.
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25) are the teachers upset [by Anonymous Citizen on June 17, 2006]
that they are having their freedom of choice taken away?
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26) Insurance [by Anonymous Citizen on September 24, 2006]
What most people are forgetting is that only half of the teachers in the state even participate in MESSA. My district does not. This bill will do nothing to control the costs of health care. It merely seeks to punish teachers for having the audacity to negotiate for their health coverage. There seems to be a belief out there that teaching is easy and that somehow teachers are out of line for wanting to earn a decent salary and benefits. Would we even be having this discussion if we replaced "teacher" with "auto worker"? Would people be claiming that because they buy cars that they pay the salary of the guy on the line and somehow have the right to say one word about that guy's salary and benefits? Of course not. Just because you pay taxes (and by the way, teachers pay them too) doesn't make my salary and benefits any of your business. I have the right to negotiate the best deal that I can. Who are you going to target next -- postal workers, cops, fire? Should we force them into substandard health care too? After all, they're public employees so their salaries and benefits are your business, right? No, no, no.
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27) Arrogance is The Problem [by Anonymous Citizen on October 6, 2006]
"Just because you pay taxes (and by the way, teachers pay them too) doesn't make my salary and benefits any of your business."

Bull Puckey. It's PUBLIC MONEY, OUR MONEY that pays you. We keep throwing more of OUR MONEY at the schools and get worse results.This is not a good business plan for all you public school educated folks. Let's do the voucher thing. If you are one of the good teachers you will rise to the top and make more money and better benefits. How about it? What are you afraid of?

"Who are you going to target next -- postal workers, cops, fire? Should we force them into substandard health care too? After all, they're public employees so their salaries and benefits are your business, right? No, no, no."

I would love to. The cops have become revenue agents for the imperial state government. UPS and Fed-Ex do what the postal service does for half the money twice as quick so yeah, we should also look at them. Fire is probably okay but I would bet that private enterprise could also improve on this.
You are the problem with the schools, arrogant, cocky and think you are better than all us little people. Keep it up, the good people are getting tired of paying more and more and getting less and less. What will you do in the real world? It's going to be tough those first few summers that you have to work. Without the teachers union behind you, you will have to show some initiative or you will get sent packing.
Good Luck
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28) Excellent Post [by Anonymous Citizen on October 17, 2006]
That about says it all. The teachers monopoly is ruining our kids and they are doing it with OUR MONEY
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29) Tired [by Anonymous Citizen on October 17, 2006]
I'm tired of every problem being blamed on teachers. Are you forgetting that teachers are only 1 part of educating children? When are parents and the students going to step up and shoulder their share of responsibility?

Regarding the insurance issue, no one has yet addressed the question of how forcing teachers into a government run health care system will do anything to restrain costs. Rather than punishing teachers for having the audacity to negotiate their health care benefits, how about attacking costs at their source? Let's do something about the drug companies and their outrageous costs. Let me cite an example: My grandmother was recently in a nursing home. They gave her an aspirin. They charged her $8 for 2 aspirin! The ridiculous costs charged by the drug companies and the medical establishment are the real problem.
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30) Hey public employee [by Anonymous Citizen on October 5, 2006]
You work for the public. Auto workers don't work for the public. Go get an automotive job in this state right now if the grass is greener in the auto union.

You are negotiating with the public and you don't want to hear what the PUBLIC has to say?. The public says you shouldn't get better benefits than the public. What don't you get about that? Look what happened to the other major union in Michigan. Look what that did to the state.
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31) Reply to:Hey [by Anonymous Citizen on October 6, 2006]
Teachers have, for decades, negotiated lower pay in exchange for better benefits. That's how bargaining works -- one side gives up something to get something else. So, Mr. John Q. Public, what are you willing to give to the teachers when you take our health care away?
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32) What do you get [by Anonymous Citizen on November 3, 2006]
Pay that reflects how well our schools are producing educated citizens.
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33) Re: What do you get [by Anonymous Citizen on December 12, 2006]
Let me offer this little illustration to demonstrate why your proposal is flawed.

Ms. Smith and Ms. Jones are both experienced employees of the ABC Company. One day, the boss comes in and tells them that they will each have a trainee. They will have to train these people and at the end of the year, the trainees will take a test to see what they learned. Smith and Jones will receive bonuses based on the results of these tests.
Smith won the lottery with her trainee. This trainee comes to work every day right on time. He pays very close attention and takes notes on everything that Ms. Smith tells him. He reads every manual and spends time after work on extra assignments to improve his skills. He has fantastic manners. He asks questions to increase his knowledge.He is always prepared for work, making sure to bring everything he needs for the day.
Jones, unfortunately, got a trainee who is a nightmare. On the days that he does show up for work, he is late. He spends more time horsing around with the other employees than he does working. He does not take even a single note. He does not take work home and, on the rare occasions when he does take some work home, he does not complete it or he loses it. His manners are appalling. The only questions that he asks are related to what time lunch will be or when the day is over. He does not bring the materials that he needs to work so Ms. Jones spends her own money to get him what he needs. He either steals, destroys or loses these items. Ms. Jones, being a talented employee, sees that her trainee is falling behind Smith's employee and offers extra training sessions to get him up to speed. He refuses to take advantage of the extra help.
At the end of the year, Ms. Smith's trainee aces the test. Ms. Jones' trainee bombs it. Smith is called into the office and praised lavishly for being an excellent, highly skilled trainer. Jones is told that she needs to upgrade her skills because she doesn't know what she is doing.


The question I pose is this -- Was Ms. Jones a lousy trainer or was her trainee the problem?

Teacher knowledge and skill is not the only factor involved in whether or not a child learns. When are people going to wake up to that fact and stop imposing punitive measures on teachers? When are we going to require some accountability from the parents and from the students themselves?
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34) Teachers need to learn [by Anonymous Citizen on December 14, 2006]
Please read the preceding comment in this string prior to reading this post.

Here’s another illustration:

Unknown to Ms. Jones and her trainee, the trainee has a hearing impairment called auditory processing disorder; or deafness under IDEA. (Look up the definition of deafness under IDEA) The trainee also has a hearing loss that falls outside the limited hearing screenings provided at the Michigan-based ABC Company but the company and hearing screener indicate to the trainee and Ms. Jones that the trainee passed their trainee hearing evaluations. Because the ABC doesn’t sufficiently evaluate trainees for deafness, a low incidence disability, or ANY hearing impairment as it costs too much the company assigns the trainees with the hearing disability to unqualified trainers such as Ms. Jones.

The trainee’s hearing disability presents to Ms. Jones who is unaware of the communication disability as a lack of manners, motivation, and a character flaw. Ms. Jones grows to detest the trainee. The trainee is punished repeatedly by the untrained trainer and embarrassed by Ms. Jones in front of the other trainees. The trainee in turn grows to hate going to work with Ms. Jones. The trainee doesn’t learn and finds it hard to stay motivated when treated disrespectfully by Ms. Jones because the trainee cannot understand what is being said in Ms. Jones’s training sessions. The trainee can’t write notes because the trainee must focus on reading lips. The trainee was never taught to read or write efficiently because hearing disability interferes with sound/ symbol connections and phonics and individualized training were never available in previous corporate programs. When the trainee tries to take notes or misses something in the verbal training sessions the trainee doesn’t ask questions because the trainee is embarrassed and knows Ms. Jones and other trainees already think the trainee is stupid and sometimes the trainee isn’t even aware that the trainee missed something. The trainee misses assignments and instruction that is given verbally in the training sessions because of the hearing disability and can’t get the required work done as a result. Frustration causes the trainee to crumble and tare manuals and work products and the trainee would rather say they didn’t do the work or lost the work than indicate to the Ms. Jones, and in front of the other trainees, that they didn’t understand the assignment or know it was assigned.

Ms. Jones blames her lack of financial bonus on her trainee rather than seeking out the appropriate root cause of the problem. The company uses the money that it saved; by not sufficiently evaluating the communication status of its trainees and implementing insufficient training programs for all trainees and trainers, on building bigger corporate facilities because they look good to the general public and providing ever increasing compensation to administrators that can’t seem to set appropriate, ethical spending priorities or balance budgets.

The administrators also make decisions on how much public money they will use to legally defend the company when trainees dare to indicate that the trainee programs and trainee evaluation procedures discriminate against trainees with disabilities. The company’s parent company makes the listening comprehension accountability checkpoint (MEAP) optional.

(As a side bar, the health care agencies were more than likely the cause of the trainee’s hearing impairment/ misdiagnosis so the trainee and the trainee’s parents were not provided appropriate ethical services in that arena either. Access to educational audiologists and speech pathologists is controlled by the educational administration. Deafness from an educational standpoint does not always show up on the standard audiogram and there such things called partial deafness and unilateral deafness.)

Ms. Jones needs to consider all things, including the age, maturity, and the professional training and ethics of the young trainees and the seasoned corporate administration when determining and assigning accountability for her misfortune. Was Ms. Jones or her coworker trainers trained sufficiently to identify the communication disability of deafness by informal observation of trainee behaviors? Can the same behavior present from different causes?

It is a much easier to blame the child or the parent than educational institutions or the health care professions. Do the same insurance companies insure these two groups? Do the same legal organizations represent these two groups? Why would the trainee’s parents ever want to increase taxes and spending to provide health care insurance benefits to others?

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35) Re:Teachers Need to Learn [by Anonymous Citizen on December 15, 2006]
Actually, Ms. Jones is aware of possible underlying causes for the trainee's poor performance. She learned about them in one of the many classes that she is required by the state agency that oversees ABC company to take. She is required to spend her own money to continue to take these classes even though she already has 3 college degrees and over 10 years of experience. She has explored her trainee's hearing, vision and other cognitively based causes for his poor performance. When the resources of ABC company were not appropriate for the task at hand, she has referred her trainee to outside agencies.

My point is this: Not everything in education should be put in the laps of teachers. We are willing to step up and take care of our responsibilities but we would like the other members of the team to shoulder their share of the burden. Not every problem is the teacher's fault and we should not be the only ones being held accountable.
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36) we have followed [by crazycajun on December 15, 2006]
teacher's (and teacher's union) reccomendations concerning parental responsibility.

the teachers and the union have worked for years to assure that the law leaves no doubt that teachers and administrators KNOW BEST.

parents have been effectively "taken out of the loop".

we have no voice, we have no responsibility.

you and your union worked for it, now make it work.


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37) student accountability [by Anonymous Citizen on December 12, 2006]
those little letters you guys put on that little "report card" thingie are the accountability that the students have.

if those are not given honestly, or if they are given too easily, then they mean nothing.

as for parents, they have been conditioned to trust you completely with the education of their children.

you know best.

careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

you wanted to teach children, you convinced the parents over the years that you knew better than they did.

produce.

live up to our expectations.
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38) Accountability [by Anonymous Citizen on December 13, 2006]
Let me address a few things in your post.

Grades -- You claim that these hold students accountable. In my experience, the kids who have parents that value education will be motivated by their grades. Kids without such parents are not. Also, accountability involves sanctions. Do you really think a letter grade is a sanction? The most we are allowed to do (at least at the elementary level -- I can't speak to any other level) to a child who does no work and puts forth no effort is try to retain them and we must have a parent signature to do that.

Parents -- You claim that parents have been pushed out of the process. Not so. Every parent I know in my life outside school is active and involved in their child's education. They have been welcomed into the school with open arms and gratitude. However, at work, I have had to beg parents for their input. I have seen a child's teacher in tears at a meeting because she was tying herself in knots trying to help a child while the parents were doing nothing.

You state "careful what you ask for, you just might get it".
Oh, pretty please, will I? OK, Santa, here's what I want.
1. Parents who read to their children from birth so that when the child gets to school, they have some idea about what books are about.
2. Parents who instill in their child the belief that education is important and who will join me in demanding that the child does their best.
3. Parents who teach their child to have manners and respect for those around them. There is no excuse for an 8 year old to be sneezing on people or to be addressing adults as "Hey".
4. Parents who get their child to school on time. There is no excuse for a child who does not have a chronic medical condition to miss 45 days of school.
5. Students who try every assignment to the best of their ability even if it is hard.
6. Students who listen in class and ask for help if they don't understand.
7. Students who take advantage of the extra help available.
8. Lawmakers who don't pass laws without speaking with the folks who have to implement their ideas.
9. Lawmakers who attach funding to anything they mandate.
10. Lawmakers who pass laws to reduce class size so that we can give each child more attention.
11. Lawmakers who enact laws to reduce red tape and paperwork rather than increase these things.
12. Administrators who stop jumping on whatever the latest bandwagon is without taking time to study what the research says.
13. Administrators who make what is happening in the classroom as the first and most important priority.
14. Teachers who are willing to either change, learn and grow or go do something else.
15. Teachers who are not afraid to say "screw the state test" and teach the kids to be lifelong learners.
16. All involved to realize that a state test is just a snapshot of one moment in time and not a true picture of what the child has really learned.
17. All involved to stop scapegoating teachers for any and all problems with education and to realize that all members of the team bear the responsibility to make things better.

I know it is a long list, Santa, but I've been very good this year.
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39) grades are a thing... [by Anonymous Citizen on December 13, 2006]
parents are people.

parents (good ones at least) will hold their children responsible, those that aren't, won't.

you will be able to tell them when they walk in the next day. the ones with good parents won't be able to walk straight from the paddling across the bottom they got for getting bad grades.

the ones that don't will smile smugly and continue failing miserably.

we should stop worrying about leaving them behind and instead wave at them as we pass them by.

maybe a fifth try in the third grade for their precious little poopsies will wake some parents up.
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40) Re: Grades [by Anonymous Citizen on December 14, 2006]
You are forgetting that teachers can not retain a child without written permission from the parent. So that "fifth try in the third grade" will never happen because the parent would never allow it.
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41) dear teacher... [by Anonymous Citizen on December 13, 2006]
i'll do what i can with the kids, but the parents and the legislature are up to you.

the stuff you ask for is pretty near impossible...

mother theresa wasn't THAT good...

you work from your end and i'll work from mine...

santa..
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42) So You Are Saying [by Anonymous Citizen on December 12, 2006]
that teachers are the same as they have always been but kids and parents are getting dumber?
I think there are some fine teachers and some dogs just as there are parents and students. The problem is that the unions and the teachers fight like heck to keep the bad ones teaching, this in turn spoils the whole bunch.
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43) What I am saying... [by Anonymous Citizen on December 12, 2006]
...is that the responsibility for educating a child does not rest solely on the teacher. Parents and students also have some responsibility. However, the teachers are the only ones who are ever held accountable. The teachers are the only ones who are subject to punitive measures and laws. The teachers are the only ones who are treated with such amazing disrespect and contempt.
Are there lousy teachers in the profession? Absolutely, just like there are lousy doctors, lawyers, etc. Every profession has its members who really should look into another career. Do teachers' unions protect unworthy candidates? Absolutely, and we as a profession have to accept that criticism and change it.
What I am saying is that we should hold all team members (teachers, parents, students, politicians) accountable for education and stop dumping on only one segment of the team. That's what I'm saying.
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44) Occupationally, teachers have one of highest divorce rates in the nation. [by Anonymous Citizen on June 17, 2006]
One, because they are rarely home. There are many extras in the teaching world that the general public is unaware of in regard to time away from our families and money out of our pocketbook. We deserve the MESSA insurance. Trust me on this one. Now, granted, do I think MESSA is as efficient as it could be? No. Could there be an internal audit perhaps of the NEW BUILDING they just built? Perhaps. But do the teachers need to be punished for that?
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45) AAA Of Michigan supports terroists [by Anonymous Citizen on June 22, 2006]
Cancel them if they are your insurance providor!
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46) Builder [by Anonymous Citizen on April 20, 2006]
That's exactly what I'm talking about! I would like to hear from those on the receiving end of things. Which hasn't happened yet.
I think that I will take your advice and talk to a few people about this. I for one, would like to know what is at stake for the teachers in Michigan.
I also realize that teachers will do their best to protect their own, and rightfully so. But at what expense and to whom? If the state can save over two hundred million a year by shifting the health care cost over to state run coverage, then we need to take a look at that.
As much as some people would like to think that it's just about them, it's not. It's about the health, welfare and wellbeing of us all.
If it's going to be a me world, then you won't matter.
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47) Coverage [by Anonymous Citizen on April 20, 2006]
This bill seeks to eliminate MESSA, which only about half of school districts participate in. My district does not so I can not speak to anything involving how MESSA works. My union negotiates with the district for health care among many other things. We have decided to take less pay in order to keep our health care stable or not incur large increases in what we pay. This bill seeks to eliminate our ability to negotiate for health care and force us into government run health care. I've been reading a lot of posts in favor of this and I'm wondering something. If you think this is such a great thing, why aren't you in line in front of me to sign yourself and your family up? Just curious.
However, that was not the question that was posed. A previous poster wanted to know what coverage teachers had. I'll answer that. I can only speak, however, to the coverage I receive. My district offers a PPO. We need to choose our doctors from the list of participating providers. If a doctor is not in the list, your visit is not covered. You are allowed one physical a year (well baby visits are allowed more often -- not sure how often, my children are older). You can go more than once a year if you're sick or injured obviously. Each visit is $10 if the visit is determined to be an office visit (not sure how they define that one). If it is not, you pay all. My children's pediatrician routinely screens hearing and vision once a year but these screenings are not covered so I get a bill for that. Each prescription is $5 but this will probably go up as well as the office visit co-pay when we renegotiate our contract. We're expecting the prescription to probably double. I can't remember how much the copay is for emergency room visits (somewhere between $50 and $100). Of course, if the insurance company determines that it didn't fit their definition of an emergency (FYI -- a child swallowing a foreign body is apparently not an emergency, broken nose isn't but broken finger is) you pay the whole thing. Tests, office visits, and medication are generally covered (although I paid for an MRI myself) but any equipment needed (hearing aids, canes, etc.) are not covered at all. That's about the best I can do to answer your question. Now I'd like to ask a couple of my own that perhaps you'll answer for me.
1)If you force teachers into a government run health care system, are you going to support our demands to recover the pay we gave up for health care?
2)Do you honestly think that this government system will do a better job? What evidence do you have to support that theory?
3)What other career professionals will you be forcing into this system next? How willing would you be to have it happen to you? When will you be lobbying to have your profession give up their negotiating rights?
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48) A Voter [by Anonymous Citizen on June 8, 2006]
My Lord
Jenny has screwed up everything. PLEASE vote DEvOS...Please!
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49) Builder [by Anonymous Citizen on April 19, 2006]
To whom this may concern,
I would expect that alot of respondents to this issue would be teachers or individuals who know teachers. Because most of what I'm reading seems to be about how the teachers are going to get raked, over a potential change in their health care.
One thing that I haven't seen though, is a rundown of the benifits that school employees get under the current plans that they have now, as opposed to the proposed State run health care plan that is being looked at.
To begin to find an answer, all must be honest in their divulgance of the truth.
I as an average citizen,I have no idea what the argument is about, unless I have all the facts. I need to know just what the teachers get and what they stand to lose as far as health care benefits, so I can weigh in with an informed opinion or judgement as to how I feel about this.
Is there someone out there who is willing to come forth and explain the benefits that teachers now receive, and how they would differ from a State run health care plan?
How could the educational community ever expect to garner support from the people of this state, if they can't tell them what's at loss.
Anyone out there with an answer?

Stephen Emmert
3750 Burkhart
Jackson, Mich
49201

There is no anonymity here.....

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50) Public Record? [by Anonymous Citizen on April 19, 2006]
Plop yourself down at a school human resource office and ask if you're curious. They may tell you. They won't tell you how much money I'm going to spend at the store this morning on school supplies. That's what the public needs to know. I still haven't seen a news reporter interview a teacher on that. We'd LOVE to share. It's CRAZY. We really rely on those benefits. We spend like crazy and the benefits help us rationalize it to ourselves and spouses.
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51) This is the best we can do? [by cdewolf on March 27, 2006]
So-
Rather than fix a broken system (Health insurance) that is costing ALL citizens of Michigan more and more every year, causing struggling companies to offer contracts with reduced health insurance and paycuts, loss of jobs, etc. let's also attack MESSA and get rid of all those jobs too!
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52) resident [by Anonymous Citizen on March 10, 2006]
What will their co-pay be?
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53) to the one's that speak [by Anonymous Citizen on December 22, 2005]
AFTER HAVING A INFORMATIVE CONVERSATION, TEACHERS THAT HAVE EARNED THEIR MASTER DEGREES, SHOULD GET WHAT THEY ASK FOR IN BENEFITS AND WAGES. ALSO, AS ALL TEACHERS WHEN AN ANNUAL EVALUATION, GRADE BOOKS SHOULD ALSO BE LOOK AT WITH THE OVER ALL EVALUATION. WE HAVE ,LIKE I HAVE SAID BEFORE, APPRECIATE AND HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR ALMOST ALL TEACHERS. AND THEY DO HAVE A DIVERSITY OF STUDENTS, TO TEACH.
BUT, WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE PARENTS ALSO, WE HAVE CONCERNS, QUESTIONS. PARENTS ARE PUT ON THE DEFENCIVE, WHEN ASKING OR SUGGESTING IDEAS,ETC.
THERE SHOULD BE SOME NUTRUAL GROUND THAT THE PARENTS ALSO RECEIVE THE RESPECT THAT THEY DESERVE,IT ALL COMES TO THE POINT OF UNDERSTANDING. AND WORKING TOGETHER.

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54) TOO BOO WHO [by Anonymous Citizen on December 21, 2005]
I BET, YOU OWN YOUR OWN BUSINESS, AND DONATE A LOT OF MONEY TO YOUR SCHOOL, SO YOUR KIDS DON'T GET DISPARAGED.
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55) You Lose [by Anonymous Citizen on December 21, 2005]
>I BET, YOU OWN YOUR OWN BUSINESS, AND DONATE A LOT OF MONEY TO YOUR SCHOOL, SO YOUR KIDS DON'T GET DISPARAGED.<

I am self employed, and make little enough money that I do not share it voluntarily with the school system.
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56) TO DON'T BE A TIMID MOUSE [by Anonymous Citizen on December 21, 2005]
I HAVE BACK BONE. THE ENGLISH TEACHER DOESN'T WORK THERE ANY MORE.NOT BECAUSE OF PARENTS CONCERNS, GONE BECAUSE OF HEALTH REASONS? RETIRED

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57) TIMES ARE CHANGING [by Anonymous Citizen on December 21, 2005]
I HAVE BACK BONE AND HAVE DONE THE PROCESS, BUT BECAUSE I'M ONLY ONE PARENT, THE STAFF HAD A PARENT DO SOMETHING BAD TO ME, ACUSSED ME OF A LOT OF STUFF. SHE ALSO USED HER PROFFESION FOR CLOUT. I'M STILL NOT DONE TAKING CARE OF THE PROBLEM, WITH PROFFESIONALISM, IT WILL BE DEALT WITH. BUT , MY CHILDREN , IS WHAT I AM WORRIED ABOUT.
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58) TO TIMES THAT ARE CHANGING [by Anonymous Citizen on December 20, 2005]
YOUR OPINIONS ARE WONDERFULL, MANY OF US PARENTS AGREE. OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM, EVALUATES THE TEACHERS,
BUT THEY DO NOT DO STATISTICAL CHARTS ON THEIR GRADE BOOKS WHICH BY THE WAY SHOULD BE INCLUDED, MY DAUGHTER HAD A PROBLEM WITH A ENGLISH TEACHER, HER NINTH GRADE YEAR, I BROUGHT TO THE PRINCIPLE'S ATTENTION, WAS TOLD THERE WOULD BE NO RETALIATION. THERE WAS. I ASKED THE COUNSELOR TO CHECK THIS PROBLEM, THE NEXT SCHOOL YEAR, SHE DID AND HAD A VERY HARD TIME FIGURING THAT GRADE BOOK.
WE COULDN'T GET THE GRADE CHANGED, WHICH IN FACT LOWERED MY DAUGHTER'S OVER ALL G.P.A. tHE SCHOOL SYSTEM SHOULD ADOPT CO. POLICY. BUT, IN OUR TOWN, MOST PARENTS WON'T SAY NOTHING BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS TO THEIR CHILDREN, IF THEY DO. JUST FOR AN EXAMPLE, MY DAUGHTER STAYED HOME YESTERDAY, HER FRIEND CALLED TO SEE IF SHE WAS OK. A TEACHER MADE A COMMENT ABOUT MY DAUGHTER, WHICH WAS INAPPROPRIETE. THE SCHOOL BOARD DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR ANY OF THE THINGS THAT DO GO ON. THE CHAIN OF COMMAND THING, WHICH IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, BUT, WHEN YOU DO THAT YOU GET NO WHERE, AND YOU ARE LOOKED UPON AS A TROUBLE MAKER. WHAT ARE WE PARENTS TO DO. CHANGE IS GOOD, I AM ALWAYS LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS. AND A BETTER WAY TO HELP.
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59) Times have to change [by Anonymous Citizen on December 20, 2005]
I appreciate your comments..I was on our local school board for over 3 years. I had four children attending the district and when the board tried to introduce a new insurance carrier to the faculty all heck broke loose. I had para educators and teachers taking my 7 year old out in the hallway and telling him/her.."your dad is a bad man. He is trying to take away my money, tell your dad to stop.' This is right out of the MEA playbook. I resigned...and guess what..my kids grades mysteriously we back up to the level that they had been at prior to my being elected to the board.

So given these type of tactics...would someone please tell me how parents can make any difference?
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60) Don't Be A Timid Mouse [by Anonymous Citizen on December 20, 2005]
If tyeachers actually treated your child the way you claim they did, they should be disciplined, up to and including fired. Canned. Ousted. Axed. Get it.

But in order for that to happen somebody has to initiate a complaint. That falls to the aggrieved party to do. Don't wait for or expect anyone else to do it for you. Oh, I know, it takes a little guts and backbone and integrity to stand up for yourself, and go head to head with your antagonists so the right thing gets done. Of course, the complaint has to have real merit -- no made up stuff -- for the process to work.
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61) Get Real Timid Mouse [by Anonymous Citizen on December 21, 2005]
Timid..your response is very true in a Utopian Society..I did register a complaint and the employees in question denied it and I was told that my children made it up. The you can't believe anything a kid says trick. The teachers union went on to publically state that I fabricated the story in order to stall negotiations.

I wonder if you have ever served on a public school board of education? Try it sometime. It is a real eye opener. Besides it is a great way to have all of your so called friends (teachers,paraeducators) completely stop talking to you. So pease don't preach to me about having courage and backbone... I hear districts and teachers consistenly whine about parental apathy. If you think that some teachers treat children of school board members in the same fashion as non-school member kids you are living in a Utopian world. I grant you that the overwhelming majority of teachers that I know are wonderful, caring, hardworking individual who do a great job. However, you mention any change in their benefit programs and suddenly everyone barks about their "entitlement" to have MESSA and shorter work days, less student per class, etc.
I have seen contract offers from teachers that exclude any teacher without tenure from receiving any pay increase while the more experienced teachers would recieve an nice fat increase. Go figure.. so much for all for one and one for all.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is change is a difficult pill to swallow and when it comes to your benefits and salary it becomes even harder.
If something doens't change in the K-12 arena very shortly don't be suprised to see massive layoffs and school consolidations due to the economic conditions.
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62) Boo Hoo! Get A Backbone And Some Integrity [by Anonymous Citizen on December 21, 2005]
>I wonder if you have ever served on a public school board of education? Try it sometime. It is a real eye opener.<

Well, as a matter of fact I have served on a public school board of education, and through some very trying times, I might add. It was how I discovered that soreheads make things up out of whole cloth, and it makes little difference if those soreheads are teachers, other school employees, parents, citizens who generally resent education, people who suffer from incessant dispepsia, or whatever. Most flat run out of guts and substantial facts when it comes to actually making a complaint that can be investigated and acted upon.

Let me tell you something further. I was known as a school board member with a distinctly “anti-union” attitude. I frequently and openly questioned and criticized a lot of union positions and teacher behaviors, and took a lot of heat for it. The teachers union made sure I didn’t get reelected. That did not deter me. I have kept up the pressure for reform and correction, with some decent results over time. During all of this my child never, and I repeat never during my tenure on the school board or before or after that time was subjected to ill treatment by teachers or other school employees because of my mouthing off and the efforts I took to make things better. For that, I respect their professionalism. And you may rest assured that had any joker decided to abuse my kid, there would have been Holy Hell to pay.

>So pease don't preach to me about having courage and backbone...<

Based on personal experience I feel very comfortable in preaching to chickens**** about courage and backbone, and about integrity.

These bills (SB 55 and ilk) to put teachers on some kind of state health insurance program are pretty much dead, anyway. As they should be. In addition to being punitively amed at a legal entity (MESSA) they are fundamentally anti-competitive and so would make terrible public policy.

A new series of bills was introduced in November , 2005, which would expand schools’ options for forming insurance pools. Those bills (SBs 895-898) are not punitively aimed at any entity and would encourage competition. They are healthy proposals. It is not suprprising those bills also are opposed by the Michigan Education Association -- MESSA’s parent -- but they stand very worthy of serious consideration for passage.
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63) You were on a school board? [by Anonymous Citizen on November 3, 2006]
Your response is boo hoo to public concern. I bet the teachers voted you in and not the public. You are so proud of your child not getting retaliated against. Do you think your child was somewhat protected by your position on the board? In your time on the board did you notice any other children of the voice of opposition getting retaliated against or did you just turn the other way?
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64) Preacher [by Anonymous Citizen on December 21, 2005]
Obviously you must be a better person than the rest of us chick*****
I wish you well O wise one!
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65) You got something right! [by Anonymous Citizen on December 21, 2005]
>Obviously you must be a better person than the rest of us chick***** <

You said it.
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66) Times are changing [by Anonymous Citizen on December 19, 2005]
My main concern is that MESSA will not release health related data to the school systems..therefore, there is no historical data available to track certain health conditions. This is a problem if you are trying to reduce premiums to the employee/employer. A second concern is that never in my 25 years of employment have I had the right to dictate to my employer who my health care provider is going to be. Only in Michigan K-12 education do you see such a mixed up situtation. In my district teachers have not had to pay anything out of their own pockets until the last year. By their reation, you would think that someone has just cut their arms off at the elbow. Get real teachers..most of us taxpayers..remember us...those folks who pay your salaries...and benefits, have been paying out of our own pockets...gladly I might add, for all of our working life.

And please do not use the kids as a bargining chip when it comes to just how important you all think you are. While salaries and benefits continue to soar test scores in our district continue to go down...and it is all the students and parents fault according to our teachers. So I beleive it is time for a change. Would MI teachers be willing to adopt the pay for perfomance salary that the Denver CO adopted this year...Test scores go up so do salaries...scores go down or remain constant..so do salaries. Just thinking out loud.
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67) pay for performance. [by mickeyvcl on January 1, 2006]
You bet I would go for the pay for performance, if the tests that were administered were the same from year to year, and I knew what to expect from the test. And most important does the test really test my or the students performance.

But reality is that politicians don't want teachers to see the test that will be administered before hand, for fear that the teacher will "teach to the test".

I would also like to have more control of the discipline in my classroom which would let me get rid of the disruptions, so the student that want to learn can. As it is now, I have to spend the majority of my time taking care of one or two students.

You also have to have a system set up to evaluate the student before I get them, and then evaluate them after I had them, to really evaluate just how much progress has been made.

But that is not what the public wants to hear, they want to hear that all students are performing at the same level, and if they are not than it’s the teachers fault, no matter where the student started from, or ended up.
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68) to: pay for performance [by Anonymous Citizen on January 3, 2006]

In my opinion, to know about a test before hand. Is good ,BUT, has a double edged sword. The meap tests, for an example of many. The students get prepped on them before their administered. Why, to make the school look good, and for ratings.
If, and there should be no problem with this opinion, if the teachers were doing their job for each and every student, you shouldn't have to worry about giving any test to them. Maybe, the students should be tested, only, on reading,english, math and science only, at the end of each school year, to see where the children are at. That will give an opinion, on how well the teachers did and/or where the student needs help. And incorperate those grades along with the grades through out that school year. Change the grade scale or curve. To make it more fair to all students. Example: 93%-100%= A; 90%-92%= A-; a 2- 3 point margin after that for each lower grade.
Maybe , the children should be tested on there learning ability, there are three types of learning. When you go to college, the counsilors explain to you, to sit and listen to the different instructors, to see if you can learn from them on their teaching skills, after all, the reason for it, is to get the maximum education for your dollar. Maybe put the student's/teaher's teaching/learning same style of learning/teaching ability together. Before you sign up for a class, that there are more than one teacher for a subject. An example, there are students out there that freeze on tests, (in-class work a's; B's) one of my daughters do, I have asked and tried to work with teachers on this, I had one High School teacher work with me and my daughter, and it worked, and I know that great teacher conversed with others, but others didn't pay attention, (so, when I brought my concerns to the others, I was accused of being a trouble maker)That they were right and I was wrong. (that great teacher, left a lucritive job, to become a teacher)
As, to the disruptions in class,my opinion, give a silibis to the students and the parents, to what is expected of them, rules of respect to you and each student and them selves, what they will learn for the year, so they can prepare as the class goes on, make a contract, (legal for you, the school,and the child and parent) Set the stage, of what is expected of you and them, but you have to do your part, not to be bias, or to discriminate, what's fair for one is fair for all.
Example: I witnessed, a student physically harm some one, the student, teacher and aide just talked to him out in the hallway after recess, the student's parentis good friends with the teacher, and sports with older siblings. A day before another student , same thing had to go to the principle's office. To much bias in the schools today,and yester years. That example was a few years ago. But, I can tell you, I still see it today, class room, sports.
I agree, on evaluation, of the students, before and after, main reason, opinion, it will get rid of the teachers that really are not in it for the students.
The public wants to hear the truth on what the teachers think, we want to hear their opinions, so we as parents can help. Is it posible your chain of command don't want us to hear? We as parents want to understand and be able to help, but we can't break through the barrier that all school staff put in front of us. I was told one time , don't air our dirty laundry. "what does that mean? If we don't air it ; it won't get fixed.
If the school Administration, all school faculty, really wants parent involvement. Then they need to practice what they preach. 1. Involve all parents,, Don't be selective on what parents you want around. 2. Validate a parents concerns, put yourself in the students/parents shoes. That is true understanding. Don't be judgemental. Find out the true facts, and don't lie to back up some one else's accusations. Then it become a legal thing.
I also think, that you the teacher have a student in class, that gets A's in all their classes, maybe you should take an inituative, and talk with the parents, about the giftedness of the student and of posibly move them up a grade, for more challenging work, My daughter wanted to skip a grade, she wanted to test out of the next grade, I knew she could pass. Brought this to a teacher, and cousilor. I said , prepare the tests, let her take them, let her acheive her dreams. No one helped. Now, if we were prominite people in town, you bet.
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69) to the one's that speak [by Anonymous Citizen on December 14, 2005]
If your a teacher, your spelling can be improved.
In most of these comments. Although, in frustration, our lack of correct spelling may be on purpose.
This is a wonderfull place to express opinions, you won't get blastfemmed for it, and /or get ostracizeed, like people like to do to other people. To make them-selves look good to others.
Some times people in your profession like to do to ordinary parents. Who truly like to be involved in their children's lives, at school. When parents put school staff on call of the rules in question, oopps they are trouble makers. We know , these comments, are not directed to your crissis at handed. Benifits, We wish we could get what you teachers do.
But, that's not going to happen, but we have to pay for yours.(benifits) While some of you retailiate against our children for one reason or another. 90 percent of teachers out there really, truly want to teach, we believe that with all our being, and those teachers, truly should be appreciated and actknowledged. I personally have told the some teachers that. But, I truly believe there should be a time limit, of how many years a teacher should teach. Because, after the first ten years of teaching, as I have observed, I'll go fifteen, I don't see the passion in the teachers eyes any more. Think about it, they got their teniur, now it's all about, retirement, doctor bills. We're getting older. Staff, join the rest of us, we are all in the same boat. Our doc., dentist, opt. will be way more than you will pay, state or other wise. Quit complaining. Be happy of what you have, like I tell my children. If you want better fight for it , find the rules that are broken, bring it to light, and make a difference, people might hate you for it. but at least, you know you tried, and you know you have helped some one that can not help them selves.
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70) TO WHAT:MAY 12, [by Anonymous Citizen on December 12, 2005]
I HOPE YOUR NOT A TEACHER, FOR YOUR COMMENT
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71) SCHOOLS AS BUSINESSES [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
MAYBE THE PERCEPTION, MONEY MIGHT BE SAVED SOME WHERE? MAYBE, IF EACH AND EVERY ONE WOULD TREAT THEIR JOB, AS IF IT WERE THEY'RE BUSINESS AND HAVE CONTROL OF THE FUNDS, YOU WOULD SEE A DIFFERNT REACTION.
WHEN I HAVE WORKED FOR COMPANIES, I HAVE ALWAYS GAVE A 110% NO MATTER WHAT. IF YOUR A RELIGIOUS PERSON, A 110% FOR THE GLORY OF GOD AND EVERY ONE COME AFTER THAT. WHEN YOU TRULY GIVE A 110%, YOU WILL BE BLESSED, IT MIGHT NOT BE MONEY RIGHT NOW, BUT , YOU WILL BE BLESSED. I HAVE ALWAYS FOUND, IF I'M HURTING FINANCAILLY, IT WILL BE TAKEN CARE OF, AND WE ARE TAKEN CARE OF.
SACRIFICIES, ARE THE NORM LATELY, WE PARENTS SACRIFICE EVERY DAY. WE DON'T HAVE LOBBIEST , UNIONS. WE MANAGE AT LOWER, HIGH COST OF HEAT, GAS, ELECTRIC,ETC. AS WELL AS SCHOOL PERSONEL, BUT US PARENTS, OUR WAGES DO NOT INCREASE, AND SOME PEOPLE ARE TAKING PAY CUTS, AND YES PAYING MORE FOR THEY'RE FAIR SHARE OF INSURANCE PREMIUMS, YOU ALL SHOULD HAVE TO DO THE SAME THING, SO YOU'LL APPRECIATE WHAT YOU DO HAVE.
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72) TO MONEY [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
NOT IF YOUR JUST STARTING OUT IN REAL ESTATE,
IT TAKES SOME YEARS TO GET THAT AND THE LOCATION YOU ARE DOING YOUR REAL ESTATE. THE PERSON YOU MADE THE COMMENT TO , THEY DIDN'T SAY IF THEY WERE AN AGENT OR A BROKER, OR AN ASSIOCIATE BROKER . THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, IN PAY. IT'S BASED ON PERCENTAGES. AN A REAL ESTATE PERSON, HAS TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES ON LAWS THAT DON'T DISCRIMINATE ANYONE, NO FAVORITISM, NO NEPOTISM,
THATS WHAT SHOULD BE REQUIRED OF ALL SCHOOL PERSONAL, YOUR A PUBLIC ENTITY.
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73) GET 4 MONTHS OFF [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
I WISH I COULD DO THAT . I HAVE TO BUY CLOTHES FOR THE KIDS, DENTAL, EYES, TRAINING FOR THE KIDS, AND TRY TO GIVE THEM A GOOD LIFE. AS WE APPRECIATE THE EDUCATION THE TEACHERS HAVE TO KEEP GETTING. WHAT DO YOU THINK US PARENTS HAVE TO DO. WE STILL HAVE TO EDUCATE OUR SELVES FOR THE CHANGING WORLD AT OUR EXPENCE. TELL THE TRUTH, YOU TEACHERS CAN AND DO GET GRANTS TO PAY FOR YOUR FURTHER EDUCATION. I KNOW THIS ,BECAUSE OF EDUCATING MYSELF. THE SCHOOLS YOU WORK AT MAY ALSO PAY FOR YOUR FURTHER EDUCATION, OUR SCHOOL DISTRICT MAY.
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74) TO I'M REALLY HURT [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
THANK YOU
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75) DIRTY LITTLE SECRET [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
TO YOU AND YOUR LOBBIST, WE THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE UNIONS ARE THE ONES THAT GET SCREWED. NOT YOU.
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76) TO THE BIG PICTURE. [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
THE PERSON THAT REPLIED, YOU MUST BE A (EXCEPTIONAL) TEACHER, AND I RESPECT YOU. YOU TOOK THE TIME TO TELL ME THE READER WHAT I NEEDED TO KNOW, TO OPEN MY MIND TO ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE OF DECISSION MAKING. NOT ONLY THAT , YOU SHOWED, YOU DO CARE ON HOW OTHERS FEEL AND THEIR CONCERNS. BY YOUR COMMENTS, YOU DID YOUR RESEACH, IMFORMED THE PUBLIC, AND DIDN'T DISCRIMINATE ALONG THE WAY. THANK YOU
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77) AMEN [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
TO ABOUT TIME. THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENT, I COULDN'T OF SAID IT BETTER MYSELF.
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78) REPROCUSSIONS ON THE KIDS [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
IT ALREADY HAPPENS, AND ESPECIALLY TO THE CHILDREN OF PARENTS THAT DO VOICE THEIR OPINIONS, WE'RE SUPPOSE TO BE ABOUT MAKING A DIFFERENCE FOR OUR CHILDREN, BUT , THE SCHOOLS DON'T WANT PARENTS TO QUESTION ANY THING TO FIND ANSWERS, PARENTS AND THEIR CHILDREN ARE CHASTIZED IN A MANNER WHICH IS UNCALLED FOR AND/OR MIGHT HAVE SOME ONE ELSE DO THE DIRTY WORK OF LIES.

DID YOU ALL FORGET, IT IS ABOUT THE CHILDREN AND THEIR FUTURE, WHICH BY THE WAY , WE REALLY SHOULD BE CONCERNED. THEY WILL BE OUR LEADERS ONE DAY.
THEY WILL REMEMBER, WHO WAS NAUGHTY, AND WHO WAS NICE, THEY WILL LEARN FROM EXAMPLE, DO YOU TREAT AND LISTEN EQUALLY AND FAIRLY?
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79) HOW LUCKY YOU ARE. [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
ON YOUR MESSA, (TRAVERSE CITY) NORMAL PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO FIND INSURANCE , NOW A DAYS, HAVE TO DO A QUESTIONIARE, OF VERY MANY QUESTIONS THAT GO BACK AT LEAST TEN YEARS, AND IF YOU ANSWER , HONESTLY, ALL THE QUESTION, YOU'LL PROBABLY GET THE INSURANCE, BUT AT A HIGHER RATE. iF YOU LIE AND SAY YOU ARE TOTALLY HEALTHY, YOU'LL GET ACCEPTED.
AS I SEE ONLY THE YOUNG WILL GET ACCEPTED FOR MOST INSURANCES. SO SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS, JOIN THE REAL WORLD. ANDS GET WITH THE PROGRAM. MOST PEOPLE THAT HAVE PASSION ON THEIR PROFFESSION, WILL BE HAPPY WITH WHAT GOD WILL ALLOW THEM TO HAVE AND BE FAIR AND EQUITABLE FOR EVERY ONE.
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80) MAKE ALL SCHOOL COMPETE [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
FIRST OF ALL . IF THE SCHOOL IS GRAND, THEN EVERY THING IS FINE. OUR CHILDREN AND YOUNG ADULTS ARE HAPPY, THE PARENTS ARE HAPPY AND SO SUPPORTIVE, ALONG WITH THE COMMUNITY AND COMPANIES THAT SUPPORT THE SCHOOL SYSTEM.
IF A SCHOOL THINKS THEY HAVE TO ADVERTISE HOW GREAT THEY ARE. HMM.. I WOULD RETHINK THAT, AND CHECK THE INTERIOR BEFORE GOING TO THE EXTERIOR.
SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE FIXED. FIRST , LISTEN TO THE PARENTS, WE PAY THE WAGES OF THESE TEACHERS/COACHES, IF OUR KIDS ARE TREATED UNFAIRLY, IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, US AS PARENTS LISTEN, BUT WHO LISTENS TO US PARENTS? WE SPEAK, BUT THEN WE HAVE TO WONDER IF OUR CHILDREN WILL GET RETALIATION OUT OF PARENT'S CONCERNS,,, NOT COMPLAINTS, THEY ARE CONCERNS. SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT.
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81) WHY [by Anonymous Citizen on December 10, 2005]
WE COULDN'T OF SAID IT BETTER , THAK YOU.
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82) this is overdue [by Anonymous Citizen on November 9, 2005]
when lobbyists from the schools dont like a law they scream for local control yet they wont give locals control to bargain fairly. messa is the biggest scam the local districts face. put them all on a state run plan. they are always crying for universal healthcare well here it is for ya.
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83) Bill 55 [by Anonymous Citizen on October 24, 2005]
Since when does the State run schools?
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84) big picture [by Anonymous Citizen on May 24, 2005]
It depends by what standards you are evaluating the teachers. Most parents in Michigan are very supportive and appreciative of their students teachers. They usually give their teachers and schools an A or A- rating.
I will not deny that there are a few teachers out there that may have become bitter or may not do the best job meeting their students' needs. They are the exception. most bitterness that I have encountered is towards a system that continues to add beuracratical requirements and cut funding to pay for it. The joy seems to slip away from teaching when your state and federal government make you a scapegoat for their lack of adequate funding and people like you jump at the chance to persecute the teachers. you have no idea what we are facing today. We have students with more problems than teachers have ever faced before. We have testing that does not look at the improvement of an individual over time but rather compares one class to the next without accounting for the differences in class make-up. Most teachers feel that they are jumping through hoops force feeding students the bits of information that the state wants to see regurgitated on the mandated test. We know that this is not the best way to teach but are being forced into it. So our education and best practices are being bulldozed by beurocrats. The shortcomings of their system and lack of funding combined with an increase in the difficulties faced by today's students due to divorce, apathy, parents who are increasingly compelled to work longer hours and consequently have less time to spend with their children, leave a few of us ragged. But we continue to do an excellent job. You have seen some misleading statistics, I am sure. Some senators like to point out that the united Statesrecently finished 17th in an international mathematics test. What they don't tell you is that we tested all of our high school seniors. this score was then compared to the top 20 percent of students in other countries. We had some of the highest scores when you dissaggregate the statistics. Minnisota was one of the top regions in the world. In other countries students are tracked either on the university course for the top students, or on the vocational track for those that don't perform as well academically. They then compare their top students test scores to our schools where everyone is pushed towards further education and takes the tests. If you took only our top fifty percent we would be well ahead of many of these countries.



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85) Reply: Big Picture [by Anonymous Citizen on June 3, 2005]
Well put!
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86) you are correct sir! [by reason on August 5, 2005]
a
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87) 2005 Senate Bill 55 [by Sheila1976 on May 19, 2005]
one more thing personal that the government wnats to control
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88) What? [by Anonymous Citizen on May 22, 2005]
What makes public employee compensation personal?
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89) Could it be . . . [by Anonymous Citizen on May 22, 2005]
>
>What makes public employee compensation personal?<

The fact that public employees work for and earn their pay, just like folks in the private sector do, is what makes their compensation "personal."
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90) Right On! [by Anonymous Citizen on May 19, 2005]
I solely agree with your comment. It has come to a point whereby teachers are no longer considered competent professionals. The government has taken away practically everything. Next, their demands will be to ask for our souls on a silver platter.
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91) Right On! [by Anonymous Citizen on May 19, 2005]
I solely agree with your comment. It has come to a point whereby teachers are no longer considered competent professionals. The government has taken away practically everything. Next, their demands will be to ask for our souls on a silver platter.
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92) Health insurance [by Anonymous Citizen on May 18, 2005]
Postively the best idea I've heard in years!

Anyway to save money is fine by me.
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93) But, then . . . [by Anonymous Citizen on May 18, 2005]
>Postively the best idea I've heard in years! Anyway to save money is fine by me.<

What happens if, by eliminating competition it winds up costing everybody more money in the long run? Will you still be a cheerleader for this proposition?
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94) slackers [by Anonymous Citizen on May 13, 2005]
There are so many ways the government wastes my money. Why don't you slackers get to work and do some real saving and stop leaning on schools. How about getting rid of tax shelters or loop holes. Stop wasting my tax money and you would not have to worry about my benefits. How exactly does this help me again? I am lost. To me, though my opinion does not count, I am not impressed. My roads suck, fix those, my benefits are great.. leave em alone.
Morons.
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95) A new plan [by Anonymous Citizen on May 17, 2005]
Pay no attention to the propaganda. Let’s sit back and watch the big union, the fat administration and the entitled teachers run the schools into financial ruin. They’ll be out of jobs and will leave the state for the greener pastures they so often remind us of. We can then start with a whole new group. A group that hasn’t been teaching for 30 years without success. A group that knows how to speak appropriately to and about those that employ them. A group that will be able to read and comprehend NCLB is not a mandate but a common sense plan that can be accomplished with a little effort. Sounds like a plan.
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96) A new plan? [by Anonymous Citizen on July 4, 2005]
This is a post to which I HAD to respond. There
are numerous errors of logic and fact in this post that must be addressed.
1. You claim that the "entitled" teacher unions will be a big part of the impending financial ruin of the public schools. Possibly, you have not read prior posts indicating that, IN FACT, teacher's unions have little power to protect their members or maintain adequate working conditions. If they did, I would not have needed to: buy my own personal copier last year as the school did not allow teachers access, purchase my own copy paper, or buy TEXTBOOKS for special education students in order to provide them an adequate education.
2. You seem to believe that Michigan teachers have it so great that it would be a punishment to teach in other states. True, Michigan teachers are better compensated than in many other states -but you forget that other states are often willing to pay almost as much for experienced teachers. Some higher quality districts give bonuses to attract desirable teachers.
3. Your statement that it would be better to start off with a whole new group is laughable. Perhaps you have not heard of "institutional memory?" Now that's a plan - get rid of all the experienced teachers, make sure there is no one left who knows what to do, and then let the most inexperienced folks run the show. Anyone who knows anything about education knows that the first one to three years of a teacher's career are the least impressive in terms of student gains.
3. You associate competence with the ability to read and comprehend NCLB legislation. Previous research has indicated that, on average, prospective teachers have roughly the same scores on reading comprehension measures as do law school applicants. Sorry, can't remember citation.
If you look back at previous posts on this board, you will see that teacher comments are of a substantially higher quality than those of many posters. Personally, I scored at the 99th pecentile on the GRE verbal test twice. I am not a math teacher, but I also outscored the average graduate engineering school applicant on the quantitative sections.
4. Your blind acceptance of NCLB as being the way to reform education is misguided. NCLB does contain mandates and districts that do not comply are penalized. For instance, as a teacher in Detroit, I can tell you that schools have closed because they did not make AYP in successive years. All that money spent on shifting staff when there is no research to support the effectiveness of this approach.
Also, there are features of NCLB that have the most affluent districts squirming. For instance, human resource professionals don't seem to be able to define "highly qualified" status for special education teachers. As the writer of "a new plan" must surely know, NCLB is legislation and legislation must be interpreted. In the high schools, a special educator who teaches science may need to become certified in both special education AND science as a dual major. Perhaps that doesn't seem unreasonable to you, but there is already a critical shortage of special educators and math/science people in Michigan. Indeed, this shortage exists throughout the country. Yes, that's right folks - even affluent districts in Michigan are having trouble recruiting teachers in these fields.
Perhaps special educators should welcome this.
After all, I have a Ph.D. in Special Education from a premier university, endorsements in both LD and Reading (both K-12), and a K-8 endorsement in all subjects. However, according to NCLB, I am not highly qualified enough to teach ninth grade Literature to students with learning disabilities who read at the 3rd grade level. In order to become highly qualified I would need to earn at least a minor in English, as well. It would be no problem for me to add the classes necessary to get a minor in math.
The question I put to "a new plan" is, if NCLB is such a good thing and it results in an incredible teacher shortage - should teacher salaries in Michigan rise further to attract qualified candidates? After all, competition would dictate that districts wanting to COMPLY with NCLB (that's right - comply implies mandate) would need to boost their salaries to attract educators who are dually qualified. What a wonderful opportunity for those of you who covet a cushy, high paid teaching job!!
5. This does not apply to "a new plan," but to the general discussion of the proposed legislation - bills 55 and 56. I have no experience with MESSA because I work in Detroit. We make choices from a variety of plans and if we want a "better" plan, like traditional Blue Cross, we pay for it.
It seems to me that a buffet of choices would make sense. Individuals who are young and healthy might go with the bare bones plan. Others may CHOOSE to go with plans that offer more benefits, but they would pay for that choice. It seems that problems apparent with the current system, such as allowing full health benefits in retirement after only five years, do need to be examined. However, a rush to assign health care responsibilities to the state could be a real disaster. Need I remind folks on this site that the tragic state of the Detroit schools came about under the watchful eye of a state appointed board ....




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97) Your plan was? [by Anonymous Citizen on July 6, 2005]
If you’re buying a copier and paper because you are not allowed access to the supplies necessary to do you job at your school and you have to buy textbooks for your special education students yourself, you might want to take that up with the administration of your school. I bet the general education students get textbooks, why not the special education students?

If you want bonuses and higher pay, go to another state, we don’t have the money in Michigan.

Institutional memory; our special education students aren’t learning and graduating. They haven’t been. That’s the problem. It’s time to do something different. What has been done in the past isn’t working. The State didn’t publish the results for special education students until recently. They only did it because it is required under NCLB. The secret is out.

You said it yourself; we have high school students reading at the 3rd grade level. You have a PHD in special education and endorsements in LD and reading as do many or your peers. Why aren’t these kids learning? Many can if they are taught in the way that they learn. That’s the IDEA behind NCLB.

What qualifies you to teach 9th grade literature? Is it the PHD in special education or the reading, K-8, or LD endorsement? I don’t think there is an academic subject called special education or LD in the curriculum is there? How can you even begin to teach literature to high school students that read at the third grade level? You have to back up and make sure they get the basics first instead of pushing them through school without an education.

There is a critical shortage in qualified special education teachers – that’s right folks we blew that in the planning phase; IDEA implementation. NCLB didn’t cause the teacher shortage. Lack of appropriate ongoing training caused the shortage. Some teachers will have to go back to school. Professionals have to keep up to date with their professions.

NCLB means no child left behind. That means special education students too. NCLB is a grant. It has conditions. Meet them and you get the federal dollars. Ignore them and you don’t. That’s not rocket science, engineering, the GRE verbal test, or bragging rights to reading and writing in the superior range. It’s common sense.

By the way Detroit was in a mess before the State took over. There’s plenty of blame to spread around. What we’re looking for here is solutions. The money has to come from somewhere and the taxpayers want accountability. We already put more money into education than many other states with less to show as a result. We need to rethink everything.

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98) please [by Anonymous Citizen on July 11, 2005]
Your ignorance is showing.
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99) Corrected reply to "and your plan was?" [by Anonymous Citizen on July 7, 2005]
(Note from MichiganVotes Moderator: The "uncorrected" version of this post has been removed.)

I think the reader of my post did not fully comprehend the context in which it was written. My post - a new plan? - was in response to an earlier post - a new plan. For the ease of the reader, I will indicate which post I am referencing.

1. Your comment(and your plan was?) -
"If you’re buying a copier and paper because you are not allowed access to the supplies necessary to do you job at your school and you have to buy textbooks for your special education students yourself, you might want to take that up with the administration of your school. I bet the general education students get textbooks, why not the special education students?"

My response - Every Detroit teacher (and probably teachers in other districts as well) who reads this is laughing. Our GENERAL education teachers consistently complained about not having books. Students had to share 3 to 1 in some classes. This year, the district didn't even place orders for 8th grade Science books because they were so old they were out of print and unavailable. So, your bet is - WRONG! And, as far as taking this up with the administration of the school, if Channel 7's Steve Wilson cannot harangue school administrators into buying/passing out books what makes you think one teacher can? The lack of equivalent supplies for special education is a great problem in this state and NOT just in Detroit.

2. Your comment(and your plan was?)"If you want bonuses and higher pay, go to another state, we don’t have the money in Michigan."

My response - Perhaps in your initial reading you didn't process my statement regarding how teachers in Michigan are, in my opinion, relatively well compensated. My comment regarding the compensation of teachers in other states is in reply to the poster (a new plan) who stated that teachers will be "out of jobs and will leave the state for the greener pastures they so often remind us of."
I don't think pointing out how desirable Michigan teachers are to other states is out of line here. Almost half of Michigan teachers are within 10 years of retirement (this may be slightly off - this could just be Detroit?). Where are all the new teachers supposed to come from?
You seem to have a special place in your heart for special educators. I will address some of your concerns regarding special education later, but one problem in Detroit is the high percentage of uncertified staff teaching in special education positions. I don't want to misrepresent the situation, but Detroit has either the 1st or 2nd highest use of uncertified staff in the country (you would need to check on that ranking). Most of the "lay-offs" that will come from Detroit's problems will NOT be teachers - that's just a contract negotiating scheme. If you look at their website, they are still begging for teachers in certain areas.
Affluent districts, as I posted, are having trouble filling some positions. So, you are inviting teachers in shortage areas to leave the state? You can peruse employment sites for the highest paying districts in the state and will find that many, such as Grosse Pointe, have posts for MOSTLY special ed positions.
As indicated previously, I believe that Michigan teachers are fairly well compensated. And, just so you won't think I'm in teaching for the money, I was offered a position by a highly paying district just after I earned my LD endorsement. Had I taken that position, I would be making over almost $100,000 now - as a classroom teacher. My CHOICE to teach in Detroit has cost me money, but I have a commitment to the children.

3. Your comment(and your plan was?)-
Institutional memory; our special education students aren’t learning and graduating. They haven’t been. That’s the problem. It’s time to do something different. What has been done in the past isn’t working. The State didn’t publish the results for special education students until recently. They only did it because it is required under NCLB. The secret is out.

My response - There is truth in what you say here. There are problems in special education. However, if you look at children from higher income families who go to more affluent districts, you will find high rates of graduation and college attendance.
You would also find, if you looked, examples of excellent programs that do result in high rates of student learning - especially for those students identified as LD. In fact, some of these programs would require LESS money to implement then we are currently spending. However, such planning requires careful thought. School boards and school adminstrations are not known for this.
Another problem with special education (my opinion) is the almost total emphasis on inclusion. We (special educators) are supposed to ensure that students access the curriculum. It only makes sense that this should be so if children are to be tested on that curriculum (MEAP, NCLB). For instance, a child in the 8th grade who reads at the 2nd grade level may or may not receive specialized instruction in order to bring up reading. Depending on funding, that child may just get supplemental assistance to do his work. Often, this does not result in real mastery of the curriculum and, in some districts, works against the best interests of the child. So, if the special ed teacher knows the kid can't do it, the general ed teacher knows the kid can't do it, and the kid knows that he/she can't do it -why should we be surprised that they can't do it on a high stakes test?
Perhaps the problem is elsewhere .... Maybe it's not reasonable to expect a child with an IQ of 65 to demonstrate mastery of the periodic table in a two hour period - with intermittent assistance - and then remember the material 5 months later. Ya' think? Yet, that is what NCLB would define as success.
Another problem with your comment stems from an unfamiliarity with assessment measures. For instance, let's say I take on a child who knows about 15 words and he's in the 7th grade. He can't read CVC words, like C-A-T, because he doesn't know all his sounds and gets the sequences mixed up. Well, I had that child this year. By the end of the year he had come up from a kindergarten level to a second grade level. He was reading! Let's do the math. In 6 years he had learned an amount equivalent to that of a kindergartener. I will be generous and assume that this is end of kindergarten. So, each year he manages to accrue about .10 year of learning (.10 is equivalent to a month). In one year he comes up 2 years (1st and 2nd grade). That would be 18 months. So, in one year I taught him 18 times as much as he learned from each of his prior teachers (assuming equal learning for each year).
Well, NCLB doesn't find that meaningful, so I guess you don't either. NCLB doesn't require states to use covariates for each child. Again - BAD, BAD.

4. Your comment(and your plan was?) -
You said it yourself; we have high school students reading at the 3rd grade level. You have a PHD in special education and endorsements in LD and reading as do many or your peers. Why aren’t these kids learning? Many can if they are taught in the way that they learn. That’s the IDEA behind NCLB.


My response -
1. All research on reading indicates that early intervention in specific areas is the best way to produce readers by the third grade. Indeed, there are measurements that have been tested that reliably identify children who will have trouble reading at early ages. Some of these measures are designed for use as early as Kindergarten. When appropriate interventions are provided many of the identified children NEVER need special education services. One measure of program effectiveness should be a decrease in the percentage of students who need service later. Some interventions consist of 10-15 minutes a day of small group instruction. Imagine that - a highly qualified teacher could probably serve two schools as an adjunct to the kindergarten teacher. Other interventions could even be carried out by para-professionals - even cheaper!

2. Many schools will not identify, or test, a child until they are in the second grade. This derives from
the belief that students with learning disabilities must have a discrepancy between their IQ and their academic achievement. How can you have a discrepancy unless there something to be discrepant. In other words, how far behind can a kindergartener really be?
Well, for those with specialized backgrounds in literacy, we are mostly in wonder of the linguistic information children pick up in their first 60 mos on this planet. Research does show that if children are not successful readers in first grade, they have almost no chance of being successful readers in third (planners determine the number of prison cells needed by third grade reading scores).
Schools don't want to provide special education services because they are expensive, so they put off assessing children at an early age. They don't provide special programs because, often, they don't know what to do and they don't want to spend the money. Principals are not necessarily reading experts - they believe what they are told. Curriculum consultants may follow a particular philosophy - for instance, Reading Recovery is a highly touted plan but the research does not substantiate this very expensive program. The program was once used in almost all the Columbus, OH schools as its home is OSU. Well, my understanding is that NO schools in Columbus use it now. Reading Recovery does not decrease the likelihood that a child will need service later, while other programs do. Yet, how many districts are VERY proud of their Reading Recovery programs....

3. Your comment - Many can (learn) if they are taught in the way that they learn. That’s the IDEA behind NCLB.

My response - THIS IS NOT THE IDEA OF NCLB! The idea of NCLB is that all children will demonstrate equivalent amounts (end points) on a quantitative measure despite different beginning points. NCLB does not use covariates. The reports are misleading without adjusted means.
I am not sure what you mean by your statement “if they are taught in the way that they learn.” Does this mean that you agree with the predominant view that a child should master content rather than receive remediation for a problem area? If so, then the current state of special education should not be ANY surprise to you. We should teach content (i.e., read the book to the child, allow child to dictate work) rather than teaching him/her to read or spell?
You have the system you want, then. Personally, I was so unhappy with the state of affairs that I decided to get a Ph.D. so I could eventually work on changing some of these problems. I believe that children DO need to learn how to read and I teach them to do that. In other words, I sneak it in whenever I can. The problem is, teachers can’t violate the laws of physics – I can’t be in two places in once or teach two classes at the same time. Intense reading instruction is small group only, trust me. Maybe you’re the Adam Smith quoter, in that case there is always an opportunity cost. If I am directed to X, then I am giving up my opportunity to do Z.


4. Your comment – (and your plan is?)

“What qualifies you to teach 9th grade literature? Is it the PHD in special education or the reading, K-8, or LD endorsement? I don’t think there is an academic subject called special education or LD in the curriculum is there? How can you even begin to teach literature to high school students that read at the third grade level? You have to back up and make sure they get the basics first instead of pushing them through school without an education.”

My response –
The point of this comment was to illustrate how NCLB will potentially have adverse affects on schools in terms of hiring qualified candidates. My doctorate is in special education and was offered through a LITERACY program, with a subspecialty in special education. I am qualified to teach all courses in literacy at the college level, including literature for children and adolescents. It would be kind of stupid for me to be qualified to teach future English teachers and not be qualified to teach their students? Does that make sense to you? Yet, because I don’t have a strict minor in undergraduate work – I am not “highly qualified.”
Please note, I did state that I would need to add math classes if I were to teach a special education math class in high school, so I am being reasonable about the need to upgrade in certain areas. However, a child who could handle advanced math would likely not need special ed math. So, it does seem kind of silly to require an additional math minor to teach a child what amounts to 4th or 5th grade math, when I am already certified to do so.

Your comment-
“How can you begin to teach literature to high schools students WHO read at the third grade level?”

My response –
I don’t quite get this one. You stated earlier that NCLB was designed so that if students were taught “in the way that they learn” they would be successful. So - do you want students to:
(a) access the 9th grade literature curriculum (you know, rising and falling action, tone, essay writing, etc.) in “the way that they learn (books on tape, dictating essays because they can’t spell)” as is accepted by NCLB or
(b) do you want them to learn to read and spell independently so they can be functioning adults?

Students expecting success on assessments used for NCLB calculation should be exposed to the curriculum, don’t you think? And the 9th grade curriculum is …(you know, rising and falling action, tone, essay writing, various genres, etc.)

As far as wondering how it would be possible to teach adolescents reading at the third grade level 9th grade literature, you should know that teachers are presented with a range of student reading levels. It would not be at all uncommon for a ninth grade GENERAL education teacher to have students reading from the 4th to the 12th grade level. Teachers teach what they get.


Your comment – (and your plan was?)
“There is a critical shortage in qualified special education teachers – that’s right folks we blew that in the planning phase; IDEA implementation. NCLB didn’t cause the teacher shortage. Lack of appropriate ongoing training caused the shortage. Some teachers will have to go back to school. Professionals have to keep up to date with their professions.”

My response –
Okay. This statement is just too funny, but I’m on a roll now. We implemented IDEA, which admitted that there were some children who would not have access to any meaningful educational experiences without special assistance. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve got problems with IDEA, too, but the basic idea of providing special assistance to some children bothers you?

NCLB has direct implications on teacher staffing and shortages. Special educators don’t get any substantive extra pay. Not enough to complete dual degrees and two student teachings. That’s another year and a half, at least, for the same money. Detroit moves teachers from room to room on a regular basis, ostensibly to comply with NCLB requirements. I’m betting you wouldn’t want YOUR 4th grade child to have 6 teachers in a year.
Also, NCLB mandates that all schools will have “highly qualified” teachers in ALL positions by a predetermined date. This means that, technically, Detroit would need to hire certified special educators, math and science teachers, librarians, bilingual Hmong teachers, etc. or they will not be in compliance. This is so ridiculous a proposition I don’t think they (administration) are even worrying about it. This IS impacting schools and WILL cost money.
You state that lack of appropriate ongoing training caused the shortage. How so? Do you mean that the general education teacher should pursue advanced training in their subject field as well as coursework to teach special needs children. If there is no teacher shortage, then you may be assuming that the teachers in place now should be doing double duty and we should forget special education? So, the physics teacher should also take classes in AI, LD, EI, CI, VI, HI, and SLI? Or do you mean that the problem is that individuals are not attracted to the high paying field of special education and that NCLB has simply exacerbated the problem? Your statement is not clear.
I do agree that professionals must constantly update their knowledge of their profession. I take mine so seriously I continued on to my terminal degree and will likely pursue more training. I wonder, though, what your training and credentials are. Have your pursued your terminal degree? Are you as well trained in your professional field as most teachers are in theirs? Just curious. So, if you’re in real estate you have your broker’s license and are also a licensed appraiser? If you’re an accountant, you’re a CPA who can do forensic work?


Your comment – (and your plan was?)
“NCLB means no child left behind. That means special education students too. NCLB is a grant. It has conditions. Meet them and you get the federal dollars. Ignore them and you don’t. That’s not rocket science, engineering, the GRE verbal test, or bragging rights to reading and writing in the superior range. It’s common sense.”

My response –
I do not believe that I have bragging rights to reading and writing in the superior range. Further, I have worked my behind off to accomplish what I have done. The comment regarding my test scores was a direct reply to what another poster wrote. “…. A group (a new crop of teachers) that hasn’t been teaching for 30 years without success. A group that knows how to speak appropriately to and about those that employ them. A group that will be able to read and comprehend NCLB (sic) is not a mandate but a common sense plan that can be accomplished with a little effort. Sounds like a plan.”
To me that post is highly offensive. True, there are teachers who don’t belong in the classroom. Yet, to portray the average teacher as being unable to read or comprehend is insulting. How is that supposed to help the situation? Why should I, well trained in this field, keep my opinions to myself when there is a discussion regarding education – something I have sacrificed for? If someone deserves to be put in their place, I will do it.
And, since you expressed such an interest in reading education, may I recommend the book "Teaching Reading IS Rocket Science" by Louisa Moats. Think about it, if it were easy, it would be done already. Most individuals who make comments about the current state of education have not been in a school in decades.
Most have not spent one day in a classroom and tried to address the needs of students. You say that we need to be looking for solutions. Well, isn't part of creating solutions brainstorming to see what the problems are? How can you tell what the problems are until you have a conversation with the individuals involved? What about spending time in a school or working with a student who has troubles with literacy? I am aware that the dropout rate of literacy volunteers is very high ... and many of these volunteers are highly qualified in other fields, but these kids wipe them out - even one on one.
I hope that you found at least some of what I wrote to be useful. It doesn't help to create the image of teacher as parasite, as previous posters have. There must be a dialogue(which is wonderful here)so information can be shared. Most teachers want the best for students, too. Has anyone bothered to ask what they can do help teachers teach - other than salary or health care? Working conditions are the primary reasons teachers leave the profession (most within the first 5 years) - not salary or health care.





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100) A different perspective [by Anonymous Citizen on July 13, 2005]
I am sorry if I offended Detroit teachers. That was not the intent. I live in affluent Oakland County. We have big bright new schools with amazing football fields, sparkling swimming pools and new band uniforms but are also lacking in supplies including paper and books. Every year the school administration pink slips over a hundred teachers and calls them all back after the votes are in. The school administration thinks parents are fools and that this actually tricks them into spending money.

I don’t have a special place in my heart for special education teachers. I have a special place in my heart for special education students. I know many of them. I am the parent of a special education student. All my child’s friends are special education students because the rest of the children, and some teachers, segregate them even if they are in the same class. We’re not talking severe cognitive impairment; they’re LD, SLI and OHI with above average IQ’s. The majority of special education students statewide are LD and SLI and teachable. The low scores they get on high stakes tests are not because they can’t learn it is because they don’t get the programs they need. The school administration likes to tell everyone that special education students use up all the general fund money and general education parents always comment those kids shouldn’t be in class with their kids. The majority of our special education students in Oakland County don’t graduate either, regardless of how much money the school districts have – check the numbers.

Do you know what it is like sitting in an IEP meeting trying to get your child special services and assistive technology? We don’t get speech and language services or occupational or physical therapy out here in Oakland County because the school can’t rely on access to Medicaid because many middle class parents have private health insurance. The health insurance companies won’t cover the services and therapies either because the schools are supposed to provide them.
Parents resort to private tutors and pay for therapies on their own. That’s a more accurate explanation for why more affluent school districts have higher rates of special education student graduation.
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